He might bring it up in his rebuttal. It is fitting, therefore its true. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. Juan R. Vlez I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. This is not a commitment to lend. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. When Isaiah prophecy states that the virgin will bear a son, it is not implying her virginal integrity remained intact after his birth, nor that her virginity would extend throughout her entire life, but only to stress that the Messiahs birth would be supernatural and that Jesus was divine. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. So Im going to cover four of them. And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? This question comes from agoyforJesus. Okay. Trent models that approach each. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. H. How do we know that theyre brothers? 17. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. So much the same way Jesus was free from original sin and personal sin, yet when he was on the cross, its not like the nails couldnt go through his hands because hes free from sin, so hes immortal. Would you agree with Jerry [Maditix 01:04:38] that the assumption of Mary was an eyewitness account just as Jesus ascension was? But I think so far, this has shown that Steve has not been able to apply scripture in an unambiguous way to show the Marian Dogma was contradicted. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. Yeah, no, fair enough. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . Christie has nine field goals in overtime to his credit, an NFL record he shares with Jason Elam and Jim Breech. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? 16. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? Okay. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. They have also lived in Garden City Park, NY and Bayside, NY. However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. It does not show that. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. After completing several real estate transactions, Stephen discovered that the agents' work ethics . At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? May 31, 2022. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? You would expect there to be deviations from it. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. So these Marian Dogmas are not optional or fitting for the faithful Catholic to believe, but are required and binding to the Catholic to remain in good standing in communion with the Roman Catholic church, despite them all contradicting God breathed scripture. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. Jesus does not rebuke her. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. The son of Jonah? Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com Hofstra University, +1 more. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? Give the person you disagree with a listen, really try to understand where theyre coming from because if after hearing their position, you still disagree with it, at least youll be better informed about what Protestants or Catholics believe so you can better engage them and resist the temptation to attack straw met. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. There is no exception there. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). Facebook And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. They point us to Jesus Christ. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. We dont believe that is the case. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. No. In fact, the term original sin like immaculate conception is not found in the Bible or in the church fathers until the time of St. Augustine. Okay, I get that. If you like todays episode, become a premium subscriber at our Patreon page and get access to member only content. 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