Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? More rounds the better. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. Ultimately, your selection of a caliber should be based first on the penetration, and second on the unexpanded size of the round. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. I know I prefer .45ACP. Train, train train and when your done. An entrance wound is surrounded by a reddish-brown area of abraded skin, known as the abrasion ring, and small amounts of blood escape through. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. All righty then, I started with 38 caliber revolvers in the early 70s, 53 yrs later, since few people carry revolvers, capacity, I have bounced back and forth and keep ammo for both 9mm and 45. The guys that could handle the .45, all preferred it. The .50 We need to dial back our expectations of what a pistol cartridge can and cant do as an instrument of CQB. Now lets get back to today in time and we do have very good defense ammo so most of the time Id agree that the 9mm is equal to any other round out there today for human sized targets and smaller as well. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. Now that you know where I am coming from. The 45 hit harder and put your target down more quickly than the 9 mm. To ensure fragmentation would be to make a round so fragile that it would virtually eliminate penetratration. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. Their over 800 FPS and some approaching 900 FPS with the hotter +P loads. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Shot placement rules. The only gun I could get to in time was a Glock 17 loaded with 115 grn jhp ammo. How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. Come On People!! A 35-45 psi While each of them has no direct bearing on incapacitation, they must all be considered. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms: There are two places that we know will incapacitate a man every time they are hit: the brain and the upper spinal column. By submitting your information, you agree to be contacted by the selected vendor(s) I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. The round severed Platts brachial artery, passing through the arm into his chest and almost entirely through his right lung. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? SS and Homeland couldnt be to aly wrong!!! I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. One of the best ammo in the market right now is Hornady Critical Dury which is 135 gr. Shot with 300 win mag at 500 yards. Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. Whether fear or anger, adrenaline can make one shake. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. 9mm Luger offers greater magazine capacity and less recoil/more weapon control at a lower cost. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Overall I enjoyed reading your piece and found it noteworthy that Smith&Wesson ( one of the great disappointments of this and the last century) was eliminated from the contract competition. Obama wants us dead. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! That said a handgun is only used to get to a bigger firearm..it was never ment to be used in longer than 30 meter engagements. The one that traveled the furthest was looking back over its shoulder and was hit in the muzzle. The 45 1911 did just that. Missing it not an option. A true warriors gun. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far But you have not reached the mark to replace that recoil spring. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. To everyone thats been in a shooting with a .45 Auto, and they say, Thank goodness it was a .45 because I only had to use one or two shots. Its just confirmation bias. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the Note that buying a handgun for personal protection is not an abstract desire. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World Projectiles incapacitate by damaging or destroying the central nervous system, or by causing significant and potentially lethal blood loss. Keep in mind that fragmentation does sometimes occur, however, it cannot be relied upon. Not everyone is as capable or as comfortable at shooting a .45ACP as they are a 9mm. I shot Master for a while. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. The tests resulted in the selection in 1989 of the 10mm bullet as the most effective and accurate round for FBI agents to carry. Elton Makin was a US marine in World War One. In September 1918 American troops had overrun the German front line, and he was sent back carrying a I notice one parameter that seems to be ignored. The FBI cant make up its mind and bounces back and forth. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. Among other things, this Whatever happened to the body armor piercing 5.7 round- 20 in the mag, one in the pipe n if that aint enough, 30 round mag works great for me!!!! 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase So its definitely capable. .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. I have my personal preferences and it is the .45 ACP, next is the 40 S&W, down the line a couple of notches is the 9mm. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. The reason is recoil. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It makes a bigger hole. This translates to a simple formula for shooting success: practice, practice, practice. Many years ago in auto racing, there was a saying regarding power. During the last 15 years in LE, I have seen literally dozens of gun shot wounds. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. Fortunately, physiological factors are often not the deciding factor. I have used the 1911 govt. With bigger bullets, you will make bigger holes., What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Thats why were here right? Pistols are primarily used for close combat. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. Officially last year it was announced that DoD intends to move to hollowpoint ammunition with this new MHS gun (whichever one ends up winning the contract). Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. Open the tools menu in your browser. Rookie year. I'll tell you what DOES impact penetrationit is the frontal area of the bullet and its relative friction and resistance as it impacts a body and attempts to travel through. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. I can concealed carry and the weight of my Ruger compact 9mm is about as heavy as I want. Hollow point bullets are superior to round-nosed ones. The 9mm is being adopted by military and law enforcement due to its higher capacity and lower price, as well as the reduced recoil which increases accuracy for many who find the .45 a bit much to handle. What more and more people are choosing is CAPACITY. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and more of those 9mm and larger. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. The test results disclosed that the .45 round displaced an average of 4.22 cubic inches of tissue, the 10mm round 4.11 cubic inches and the 9mm round 2.82 cubic inches. All rights reserved. Still, I think when we're talking about pistol caliber handguns, it's pretty hard to measure any substantial accuracy differences when we're rarely shooting at distances greater than 15-25 yards if that. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! As I have read your comments and, also read many debates including what science says. My neighbor saw that the guy was afraid of the thing and couldnt get back on target after the 1st shot due to the recoil and his flinching with every shot. Damage: 62. 45 stopping power! At 10-20 yards I want a .45. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. Both hit 15 first shot, .45 exploded watermelon leaving trails about 15 feet behind, 9mm put a hole in it nothing more. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. Rifle rounds have an elongated, oblong shape and so they often tumble. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. Thanks. Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. While this research is geared toward law enforcement officers, it cuts through the confusion, and provides common-sense, scientifically supported principles by which the effectiveness of self-defense ammunition may more generally be measured. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. For me I have a 9mm that is concealable as well as my AR15 223 and like some of the others on here I would rather us my 15. It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. Of course, not being in the military, or law enforcement, my goal is no collateral damage! He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. Most people ask to be shot with the 9mm instead of the .45acp. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. I was a PA-C in the military. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. human body When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. Fortunately or unfortunately I did shoot other humans with a 45 as close as 4 feet. The debate isnt settled. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. A 9 is a great backup. You are up close and personal with this guy. A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. I am old school. I thought a 55 115lb girl with small hands would want a .380, so I was surprise when she chose a Walther PPS in 9mm. One writer mentioned the old adage about wounding one and it takes two more to remove him from the field of battle. If I knew for certain I was going to use my gun Id pack the .45 all the time. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. career to carry a Glock 9mm. Oh and dont give me the garbage about 9mm has come a long way since its inception. human body Oh yeah, I long forgot where I read it. They said, ja, the 9mm kills people just fine, as long as you use it the way anyone with any sense uses a pistol caliber. John Michael Callahan served in law enforcement for 44 years. Just bless his little Prsident heart. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. When theres no more powder burning to push the projectile, it decelerates. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. This accurately stuff doesnt make too much sense when you have a bonsai charge advancing on you and your rifle was not available. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. What causes more damage, .45cal pistol or 5.56 mm rifle? She said she shot him. The will to live and fight varies from person-to-person. However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. interacts online and researches product purchases Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? and manufacturers. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. Explore. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. With training one would be more calm, but also a persons experience with conflict determines surety. Thats good, it is always good for people to find what works best for them. Im very confident a 45 caliber would have been one and done. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. 45 acp damage human body Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. So its purpose is based on design. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. What damage can a .45 caliber bullet do to a human? - Quora Its a High Point .40S&W. The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Knock down power. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. I seem to recall reading in Rangemaster newsletter a month or two ago an FBI paper making the FMJ case. I know this is off topic. I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. But what I am struggling to understand is some of the ludicrous logic coming fromvarious sides of the issue. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. I definitely know how to settle this little petty argument. Great article by the way. What makes the .223 potentially deadlier than the .22 is its velocity. Doctors later determined that this round was not survivable. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. Also we are talking pistols. The average criminal etc. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. ago Haha. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. Just came down from AK and bears and mad moose have been my biggest issue. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. The Simple Physics That Makes Some Bullets Deadlier Than This is accomplished through simple physics; a larger bullet imparts more force into its target than a smaller one. Its too small. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. Glocks are cheap and reliable. cause if they did there would not be so many innocent victims being injured and killed all because they couldnt hit the side of a barn with a soft ball from 5 ft. Okay all handgun are garbage. 45 ACP Thanks for reading and commenting!! Heart shot, rolled it on the spot. handgun on the UN Side. A bullet entering an enemys body does damage in two ways. Then get ready for a gunfight. It was modified to accept a detachable magazine and equipped with a folding stock. I'd like to see the science on that one. That is those of us that has and carries guns. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. Physiologically, a highly motivated target can only be destroyed by hitting the brain or the upper spinal column. You get the idea. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. Your tax-deductible donation to The Trace will directly support nonprofit journalism on gun violence and its effects on our communities. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. F = MA is absolutely true as it applies to ballistics. First off, its important to understand what the term refers to. Witnessed it first hand. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. Frank K. Seems to me that when using the same style bullet in the 45 and 9mm the 45 would still beat the 9 in stopping power.

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